Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

30

It's Amazing!

by whathehadas in

it's amazing to me how many of the exjws no longer believe in god.

i know some of you have many reasons to believe in what you do now.

but this is a big testimony to what the wts does to people's concept of god.

I'm not surprised that a large number of former Witnesses leave religion altogether. As others have mentioned, the Watchtower basically poisons the well. We are taught that other religions are full of money-grubbing pedophile clergy who teach lies (and to some extent, this is true!).

Many Witnesses that I grew up with are not very "religious." We always mocked "holy rollers" and "Jesus freaks" and got great pleasure out of proving their beloved doctrines (e.g., trinity, immortal soul) wrong. Many of us liked the JW religion more for what it was not rather than what it was.

So what happens if you take a member of a religion who is not really religious and believes that all other religions are bogus, and show him that his religion is wrong? Well, it seems reasonable that he would reject religion in general. Like someone once said: 'everyone's an atheist about most gods (Thor, Zeus, etc.)...I just take it one god further.' That's what a lot of Witnesses do vis-a-vis religion.

I've talked to Witnesses who, when confronted with holes in their theology, state: "well nobody else is right." My response: take away the "else" and I'll agree with you.

In my personal opinion, many religious people simply lack the humility to recognize that maybe we don't have all the answers. And maybe we're not as special as we'd like to think we are. That's a sobering thought and it takes some intellectual courage and humility to consider that possibility. But isn't it the more likely scenario?

40

In the past 20 years, have you seen a balanced, educated adult not raised by JW parents get baptized as a JW?

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

i am not criticizing those who have gone through depression or a traumatic experience.

nor am i criticizing those who were raised as a witness as i was.. but i am curious to know if any of you have seen a person from the territory, not a relative of a witness, no recent tragedies or emotional problems, not a young runaway, not a drug user, but an educated adult who began a study with jehovah's witnesses, and eventually got baptized.. when i was a missionary, i met a gilead couple who had been in their assignment for 19 years.

i asked them about that.

Olin Moyles Ghost

This is a touchy subject. We need to be careful to to look down on these folks. I prefer to think of them as "skinned and thrown about" and as "sheep without a shepherd," but that's just one ghost's opinion. I also like the Seneca quote in Besty's post below.

I've been in several English-speaking congregations in the USA over a few decades. During that time I have noticed very few baptisms resulting from cold-calls (the door to door work). A large majority of baptisms are children of Witnesses. Some are other family members of Witnesses (usually spouses, sometimes siblings, rarely parents). A small percentage come in via informal witnessing, and a handful come in from the cold-calling work.

I have noticed one trait across almost every Witness I know who came in from the field: lack of strong family ties. I don't know any Witnesses who came in from the field who have a close-knit family living in their community. In the rural USA, it is common for generations of family to live within a few miles of each other. Witnesses in these areas complain how difficult it is to get people to study and "make progress" when they have strong bonds with non-Witness family.

I have never seen folks in this situation become Witnesses. Rather, I have seen people who have moved into the community from another state become Witnesses. Also, folks who had a rough family life and do not feel strong ties to their parents have come into the religion.

Of course, all of the above is just my personal observation. The Pew report cited above gives a more complete picture of the Witness demographic in the USA.

10

Ireland Criminalizes Blasphemy - how will this affect the WTS?

by HalfWayThere in

jw
friends

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/7171.

from tfa:.

"aside from a 25,000 fine (reduced from the 100,000 originally sought by the government), the new defamation act gives the authorities the power to stage raids on publishers: the courts may now issue a warrant authorising the police to enter, using reasonable force, premises where they have grounds for believing there are copies of blasphemous statements.".

Olin Moyles Ghost

It won't affect the WTS in the slightest. This is just a political move calculated to gin up support among religious voters. Nothing more.

Lots of states in the U.S. have statutes forbidding fornication, adultery, and blasphemy. Sometimes there's a movement to repeal these statutes, but such movements usually fail because state representatives from rural religious districts don't want to go on record as being 'for' fornication/blasphemy/etc. It doesn't matter that these laws are never enforced...it's all a matter of keeping up appearances and appeasing the religious voters.

That's exactly what this blasphemy law is.

59

The Last Warning

by cameo-d in

did i read somewhere that wt is putting out "the last warning"?.

was it assembly topic or something?.

does this mean they will shut up now?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

No, the district convention didn't claim to be "the last warning." Yes, it was full of doomsday, end-of-the-world talks, but there was no announcement that this is a "final" or "last" warning. Rather, they just said that it was "imminent" over and over again.

Nonetheless, I'm not surprised if some Witnesses came away with that impression. This year's DC was heavy on the end of the world rhetoric.

There may have been a few statements about the JW teaching that at the very end of the last days the JW message will turn "harder"--like hailstones. In other words, the JWs teach that their message will change from one of salvation to one of judgment. Similarly they also teach that one day soon the figurative "door of the ark" will close, and nobody else will be allowed to join. They've been saying this at least since the 1970s and...of course...this has not happened.

Personally, I doubt that the Witnesses will ever change to the "hailstone" message. It's bad for business. Rather, just like The End, it will always be "right around the corner."

43

Imperfection isn't the problem. The problem is accountability.

by AllTimeJeff in

this was such a profound statement on another thread that i think it bears some further thought, esp because the governing body tends to put their head in the sand as to how their current teachings and dogma do harm to their sheep.

we will come back to current teachings in a minute.. first of all, this is how jehovah's witnesses are taught to view their leaders.

from the july 1, 2007 wt "humbly submitting to loving shepherds".

Olin Moyles Ghost

The whole issue of the GB's lack of accountability ties into the the issue of whether the GB claimed to be a prophet. Witnesses will bend over backwards, twisting and contorting the English language desperately trying absolve the WTS/GB of any responsibility for being a false prophet. Here in the U.S., we would describe this as "Clinton-esque" after former President Bill Clinton who was known to parse words and famously said "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is."

This is the way I see it: talk is cheap, actions matter. The WTS and its followers can say that the GB is not a prophet until they're blue in the face. But what do the actions bear out? Well, as pointed out in the WT quotes in the original post, Witnesses are required to follow the GB/FDS and what it teaches. They are not permitted to follow the GB only sometimes...rather it must be complete adherence. They are required to believe and teach the current understanding as set forth in the WT--no deviation. Thus, Witnesses are required to treat the words of the GB as if they were inspired--just like the Bible.

So the WTS/GB is doing an excellent job of "having its cake and eating it too." They get all of the benefit of being an inspired prophet--100% devotion and adherence--without any of the responsibility and accountability.

25

I need some good responses to the excuse "The elders are imperfect"

by BonaFide in

please make them simple, i have noticed that some of my friends can only stand logic for about 30 seconds before they start changing the subject.

i need some good questions, or points to make them think.

i have tried my own, but i need a better response.. here are the comments my friends have made:.

Olin Moyles Ghost

If someone says that the GB, elders, etc., are imperfect I agree wholeheartedly. That's why John was inspired to write 1 John 4:1 which tells us not to believe every inspired expression, but to test it. According to that verse, God is commanding Christians not to simply believe whatever any purported leader tells us. If God wanted us to follow men, he could have told us to do so. Fact of the matter is that he did not. In fact, he did just the opposite.

The JWs get a lot of mileage out of Heb. 13:17 about being obedient to those taking the lead, which is fine and dandy as long as those taking the lead are speaking the true word of God as stated in Heb 13:7.

Any scripture that seems to require following men needs to be read in the context of other scriptures which command Christians to test matters from the scriptures and which require Christians not to go beyond what is written.

43

Imperfection isn't the problem. The problem is accountability.

by AllTimeJeff in

this was such a profound statement on another thread that i think it bears some further thought, esp because the governing body tends to put their head in the sand as to how their current teachings and dogma do harm to their sheep.

we will come back to current teachings in a minute.. first of all, this is how jehovah's witnesses are taught to view their leaders.

from the july 1, 2007 wt "humbly submitting to loving shepherds".

Olin Moyles Ghost

Well stated, Jeff. Everybody is imperfect, but we're accountable for our actions. Unless you're the Governing Body. When they make a mistake,the rank & file Witnesses are accountable. If the R&F don't fall in line with the new understanding, they're accountable. If the R&F point out that the GB was wrong, they're accountable.

There are a few institutions that function this way. For example, North Korea. But in the Western world, we don't have much patience for authority without accountability. Here in the U.S., our leaders are accountable every 2, 4, or 6 years (for the House, President, and Senate, respectively). Sure, the system is far from perfect, but at least our leaders are accountable and we are free to criticize them and point out their failings.

Imagine how people would react if the U.S. government operated the way the GB/WTS operated! For example, suppose you could get deported or imprisoned for criticizing the President. We would have a second American revolution. In fact, there would probably be Watchtower articles about how the despotic regime is a fulfillment of some Bible prophecy.

122

Could Watchtower Collapse Be Sooner Than You Think?

by metatron in

jw
friends

there have been a number of developments over the past few months and they paint an interesting picture.. witnesses can keep dragging themselves to meetings ad infinitum however, the future of the watchtower itself is another story.

the evidence of continuing cash flow problems is now overwhelming.

if you talk to well placed witnesses, most won't deny it but simply blame it on the publishers financial problems.. they have cut off loans to congregations many of whom genuinely need new kingdom halls.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Great thread. Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I think the WT Society is going to keep doing just fine for the foreseeable future. Why? Two words: estate planning.

If you've been to a Kingdom Hall in the past few years, you have probably noticed that a disproportionate number of Witnesses are elderly. These are your loyal, died-in-the-wool JWs. These folks are the ones most likely to leave a significant portion of their estates to the WTS. Sure, most of them are not wealthy, but many of them own a modest house and may have some savings. Also, it's not uncommon for these loyal elderly JWs to be childless. In this case, who else would they leave their estate to?

Let's estimate that the average elderly Witness in the USA/Western Europe has an estate valued at $100,000. If only 1,000 such Witnesses die next year and leave their $100k estate to the Society, that's $100 million. I don't have any inside information, but I wouldn't be surprised if the WTS brings in hundreds of millions of dollars each year from the estates of dead Witnesses. Over the next 10 years or so, lots of these elderly JWs will die off...and this will create a financial windfall for the WTS.

Now, I don't think this is sustainable in the long term because the next generation of JWs (baby boomers) had more children because they weren't around for Rutherford's "wait until the new system to have kids" teaching. Thus, when the boomers die off, they will likely leave only a portion of their estate to the WTS--if anything at all.

21

E!Online: Will Michael Jackson's Funeral Be Jehovah's Witnessor Muslim?

by AudeSapere in

i had to do a doubletake.

seemed like a few threads from here on jwn...!.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/eonline/20090702/en_top_eo/132450.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Here's my speculation:

There will be a private burial--family and close friends only. This will probably take place some time before the big spectacle next Tuesday. Sunday may be the day for the burial.

The big public "memorial" for Jackson on Tuesday will likely be 100% secular--basically a celebration of his music. I don't think Mrs. ("Sister") Jackson will allow Sharpton and Rev. Jesse to get up there and start preaching.

The interesting question to me is how the private burial service will be handled. Since MJ was an ex-witness, I don't see how an elder could get away with officiating over the burial...but you never know.

37

District Convention ruminations

by sir82 in

jw
friends

if y'all can stand one more dc thread, i thought i'd post some miscellaneous rumbling ramblings about this year's edition.. to protect my privacy, i'd prefer not to disclose the location - pm me if interested.. ***** attendance, as in all other years i can remember, was much lower on friday than the other days.

in fact, the attendance was 22% lower on friday than on sunday.

so, as usual, they hammered home the point about the importance of attending all 3 days....on friday!

Olin Moyles Ghost

I never really got the point of those resolutions at district conventions. Seemed pretty hokey to me.

Sir82: you have a pm.